The Call of Meaning and the Essential Aspect of Self with Jules Kuroda
Reese Brown (00:00.538)
Jules, thank you so very much for the time and energy of meeting with me today. I am so excited to dive into the innate self and your work, your life, your story. So thank you very, much.
Jules Kuroda (00:21.4)
Thanks so much, Reese, for having me on. It's always a pleasure to get to connect with people.
Reese Brown (00:27.552)
Absolutely. Well, to get us started, the question I always like to start with just to hopefully set a good expansive tone for the podcast is what is one thing you're grateful for right now?
Jules Kuroda (00:41.122)
Today, I'm grateful for my health. Last weekend, I went with one of my best friends and we did a 30-mile hike in the Appalachian Trail. And it was one of those like, you just carry everything on your back, you know, and schlep it up the mountain. And I was like, yeah, I still got it. So it really made me feel very grateful for my physical health.
Reese Brown (01:05.306)
Absolutely. That's so impressive. My knee is aching just thinking about it. okay, so I have, right. How long did it end up taking y'all? 30 miles.
Jules Kuroda (01:11.054)
Mine were too.
Jules Kuroda (01:17.984)
Well, we did, so the first day we actually got rained out. So we did like four miles in like soaking rain. And then we were like, well, let's start over again tomorrow. And so then we did the next like 20, 23 miles the next day. And then we just ended with a, so it took, it just took a couple of days, but I know you don't do it continuously. You're like stop it, pitch a tent and yeah, it was great.
Reese Brown (01:31.865)
Wow.
Reese Brown (01:36.867)
Right.
Absolutely. Did you see any any moth men or or other cryptids while you were there?
Jules Kuroda (01:45.23)
Nope, nothing like that. Just some beautiful trees.
Reese Brown (01:52.014)
Amazing. love it. Well, my second question for you is what is your story? Of course, that's a really big question. And you have also written a book that incorporates a lot of your story into it. But whatever you're called to share about your story in this moment, I would love to hear what you have to share.
Jules Kuroda (02:12.814)
Sure. So I was raised in the Midwest and I have had the pleasure at this point of living all over this country. And I've also had the opportunity of living in Africa for a little bit, of living in Europe for a little bit and living in Canada. So I feel like I've gotten a really great kind of understanding of commonalities and differences of culture, but that common human thread that connects through regardless of...
the differences in culture. Growing up in the Midwest, I definitely have had my horse riding days, my mud schlepping days, but I also lived in LA. We were those crazy people during the pandemic that moved out of LA and got an RV and lived in the national parks for a couple of years. And that was just incredible, not continuously, but as much as we can.
We did, you know, 30 days here and there. And it was a really great opportunity actually to see like the majesty of nature. It really made a profound impact on me. And I've had multiple chapters in my life. would say like I've had, you know, professionally speaking, I started out in academia. I'm an educator by nature, by heart. I did 10 years there, moved over into the nonprofit space.
which was a really incredible experience, kind of on like deeply emotional level of connecting with people and seeing, I worked largely with the refugee community, which I did talk quite a bit about in the book. And it really, really made a huge difference on my life. during that time, after that, I moved into working in an orphanage in Liberia for a little while for a nonprofit in the US. And that was a pivotal moment for me in understanding
that I didn't have some of the tools I wanted to be able to influence and tell good stories. And so it sent me back to school. That's when I moved out to LA, got my master's in organizational leadership, and then turned the corner and went into corporate and started coaching executives. so I've had a varied journey. And I like to think about my life in chapters. So the book is a totally new chapter for me of actually putting something out into the world, which is both thrilling and a little scary.
Reese Brown (04:35.226)
Yeah, absolutely. The excitement fear of all of that, right? I love what you said about getting to experience all of these different facets of humanity and the human experience from all the different places that you've been able to live and all the different communities that you've been able to be a part of and learn from with that common human thread.
This is really the crux of the book, so I kind of want to dive into it. Talk to me about how you conceptualize of this common human thread, and why are you so fascinated by it?
Jules Kuroda (05:17.708)
Yeah, it's a great question. And I think, you know, to talk about how I conceptualize it, almost it almost feels to me more like a like a river or like there's a flow of energy that happens between us. And not to sound so, you know, esoteric about it, but I think we step into it most often in moments where we're we're kind of silent or we're not bound by language. This has been my experience and working with so many different people that I couldn't communicate with.
And in spite of not being able to actually like mentally connect through, you know, ideas and language, we were still able to have these beautiful moments of connection. And that to me is stepping into that shared thread. And I talk a little bit in the book about my neighbor, Rangina. But when I moved to LA, I was living in a little studio apartment and my neighbor across the way, she was Afghani, couldn't speak almost any English. I mean, she just was like, hello.
And she could say, she could say hello and come over here. But it was just calm, you know? And during that time that I lived there, I had dinner with her probably three nights a week. And we would just sit in like this beautiful silence where she's prepared a meal for me and you could feel the generosity and the kindness and the warmth and the connection without any language.
And that to me is kind of the heart of what it means to step into that thread of human connection is it's very accessible, but sometimes we almost mentally block it. But if you take away the mental things like language and ideas and actually just have shared experiences, it's really hard to deny.
Reese Brown (07:03.0)
Yeah, absolutely. With taking out this mental piece of the picture, right? Because of course, one of the parts of the book that I really love is how you do integrate the esoteric with some of these more grounded academic concepts. And you mentioned earlier, you're an academic by trade, you're a teacher. And bridging the gap between these kind of...
I hesitate. I don't really like the phrase new age because I think so much of it is actually about returning to ancient and indigenous practices. but for lack of a better term, new age and kind of metaphysical practices with grounded scientific practices. Can you talk to me about why it is in this intersection between like kind of removing the language, linguistic descriptive
maybe more structured academic sense of experience, why is that where this sense of human-ness arises? And yet we're still kind of bound by our brain, right? And being within that. yeah, talk to me a little bit about that liminality and why that's where you see, you feel, and you see this experience arise.
Jules Kuroda (08:30.88)
Yeah, I mean, you're asking a really good, expansive question. So let me break it down in terms of how I see it. And I'm going to use my coaching frameworks for this. So the way that we tend to think about ourselves, and I'll speak from a Western culture perspective, is we see ourselves as sort of our mind, which we know through our language, our ideas, our bodies, which is all about our action and ability to actually do things. And our
So that's all about our emotions. But outside of all of those things, we have these characteristics in us that long for meaning and purpose and joy and contribution. And how do you explain what courage is and our need for creativity? All these things that don't fit into those buckets. And that's because, in my opinion, there's a fourth aspect of us that we...
we don't conceptualize this so much and that's what I call the innate self or the spiritual self, but I intentionally wanted to create new language around it because I think people sort of fall into one or two camps around the ideas of spirituality. They're either like totally bought in and they have a belief system and or practice or they don't and because they may be more analytical and I've worked with a lot of
highly analytical people who are like, well, I don't know what my belief system is. I don't think I'm spiritual. And I want to break that down. there is, we have four aspects of us, our mind, our, our heart, our body and our spirit. And that spirit is the being part. And so you ask like, why is it outside of sort of language and constructs that we tap into that it's because it is being it is, it is when we are in nature, we connect with these moments, right? When you're in nature and you just
quiet your mind a little bit or through mindful practice. There's a lot of research on that. Just the sense of feeling connected to something bigger than yourself, connecting to one another, it sits in that space outside of mind. And I think that's so hard for us in our culture, in Western culture particularly, because we're so attached to mind. And so that's why I think it's important just to
Reese Brown (10:48.121)
Yeah.
Jules Kuroda (10:51.736)
kind of push against that a little bit just to create a little space to see and or feel something maybe a little different.
Reese Brown (10:58.99)
Yeah, totally. I completely agree that it is so hard for us to kind of, it's almost like let go to step into it, right? like you said at the very beginning of that answer, from this Western framework, right? I think there is something very Western about stepping into the analytical mind and like, okay, but how do I understand this? What's, can I?
put together a philosophical proof of all of the things and yet you can't categorize or describe these certain things. What is it in your opinion that draws us, because like you said, we have this innate drive towards meaning and purpose and the big, big questions, the mystery as I like to call it.
What is it that, I guess I'll ask a two-fold question, drives us towards that and that curiosity, but also keeps us in wanting to analyze and explain it and not just allowing it to be mysterious?
Jules Kuroda (12:16.288)
Yeah, I mean, you know, we're we are in and of ourselves an ecosystem, right? We're like a whole integrated being. so emotions are even kind of hard to detangle from our thoughts and definitely from our bodies. It all coexists. And yet there are distinctions. And I think that is a part of what my hope is that we can understand sort of the distinction.
of our innate self, just the innate stands for like our higher nature that has eight characteristics. But it's also innate in all of us. And regardless of culture or any of that, it's just like a human, it's the divinity in us, right? And so I think there's something really powerful about recognizing that, but also, yeah, we need to understand things. Like that's also how we're programmed. And I think, you know, the, to me, the power of understanding how your, minds work,
from more of a holistic lens is to recognize our minds naturally are trying to protect us. That's what they do. mean, they are there to help make sure that they're like incredible tools, but they can wield power for us or against us. And that is just a hard thing to reconcile. And I talk a lot about the mind in the beginning, just around like, I call it our frenemy because I think it unlocks so many things for us.
and the power of our thinking, you know, it really creates a lot of our world, but it's like a pair of glasses that you can't take off. And just because you see something a particular way doesn't mean that's how it is. And so I think the more we can understand some of the limitations of the mind, we can create some space to experience something outside of it. And that's my hope, because I do feel like to your question around, I feel like we are drawn towards meaning and purpose.
And it's interesting, I talked a little bit about this, just in terms of working with executives, one of the things that was so powerful to me and part of what led me to write this book is that at the end of these conversations with executives who were talking about how do I make my team more impactful? How do I be more impactful? Productivity, productivity, productivity. There would become this moment.
Jules Kuroda (14:33.134)
if we work together long enough where they would start to say, but I just don't know what it means, or I just don't know what if I'm actually making a difference in the world, or am I really helping people? Or I feel like I have so much more to offer and I just don't feel like I'm able to do it. And there were these deep personal questions that people want to, if they allow themselves to go there, want to answer. But I think we hold ourselves back sometimes from it because we're afraid of where it might lead us. And that's the mind trying to protect us, right? So,
Yeah, I think I think we do have an internal compass. And that's the way I think of the innate self is it's our compass, if we if we tap into it. And it will lead us towards things that we feel called in and to to use our gifts and to use our talents. But it's that small, quiet voice. It's not the one that's super loud in our brains. As I talk about our internal roommates that live in our mind. It's not it's not there.
Reese Brown (15:32.44)
Yeah, yeah, I love the the frenemy comparison because it is so it's both our gateway into understanding, but also the thing that keeps us from being able to be within the whole. And that's something you talk about, like the individual versus the universal, right? And how having a self is the thing that allows you to experience it all. But it's also the thing that prevents you from being in the universal innateness of of it all.
you said something that I think is so fascinating and I agree with, and that it is our mind trying to protect us. And I think, I mean, we all, with all of the beautiful new research that's coming out around psychology and how anxiety in, all sorts of different, you know, mental experiences that we have, I say anxiety cause it's closest for me to grab onto, right?
that it's actually a holdover from back in the day needing to protect ourselves truly physically. And now it's this new kind of protection that we work beyond in past. What is it that you think our minds are trying to protect us from now? Because I do think for me, anytime I step into, I'll use your beautiful language, the innate self, and I feel that
alignment with the universal or you know as some sort of spiritual spark or just the breadth and depth of the mystery. It feels like a homecoming. It doesn't feel scary and yet the mind is protecting us. What's it protecting us from?
Jules Kuroda (17:16.206)
Mm-hmm.
It's such a great and loaded question. And, you know, part of the reason I talk about the mind as the friend of me and that we have these internal roommates is it shows up with different voices to protect us from different things. The bottom line, I would say, is it's trying to protect us from what perceived danger. But what's interesting about the world that we live in today is that perceived danger could be reputational. It could be like, I don't want to say something.
that makes me sound stupid because I don't want people to think of me that way. Like that's a thing our mind tries to protect us from. Our mind's trying to protect us from being gullible. And I think I talk a little bit about how I think, you know, culturally it's easy. We've gotten into a pattern where it may be easier for us to not believe something than to believe something. And I think that that's that. I don't want to be, I don't want to be caught gullible. I don't want to, I don't want to be perceived and or
I don't want the gotcha moment. And so I'm not going to believe in the mystery. I'm going to believe in the things I know and the things I understand and the things that are proven. And it's understandable. It's just very limiting, I think, to think that that's that it's all that you have to know everything in order for it to be true. And that's the part I feel like, you know, we are if you step into nature, nature is a beautiful example to me because we're still discovering so much like
there are still so many species of things we do not know. And there's a beautiful thinker and she does a really great work in biomimicry called Janine Binyas. And what she does is she essentially looks at how natural things work in the world and then helps organizations figure out how to work parroting what's happening in nature. And what's really interesting if you look into the research is like nature is so interconnected.
Jules Kuroda (19:13.836)
like to, you know, from even the way that tree roots work, they're all interconnected and they send each other signals. And so like if one tree gets sick or if there's a fire that's coming, they literally send each other signals through the root system. And it's just really powerful. But we didn't know that until like not very long ago. So there's like all these mysteries that if we expect that we know them and knowing them means that they're true, we miss out on
so much of what life has to offer. And I think nature is such a beautiful example of life's mysteries that we can learn from if we tap in and remind ourselves that in some ways the world knows so much more than we do. Like creation has, it's so masterfully made and it has so much to teach us, but we have to put ourselves in a receptive mode and lower some of that barrier of that, mental.
the mental rigor we try to put around understanding everything.
Reese Brown (20:15.426)
Yeah, yeah, and just be and allow and feel. Yeah, absolutely. With that and this framework that you offer with kind of the four distinctions here of selfhood, one of my questions was the way that these four segments of mind, heart, body, and innate self interact. Do you view the innate self as
kind of the umbrella over these other pieces from which everything stems? Are these all like equal puzzle pieces? Or is there something more primordial in the innate self that is kind of original, originary? That's not a word, but I think you know what I'm getting at. Yeah, and how these, and you mentioned earlier, they intersect in their...
Jules Kuroda (21:07.246)
I know what you're saying. Yeah.
Reese Brown (21:13.498)
constantly bumping up against each other. yeah, talk to me a little bit about why they are distinct and the places where those distinctions get a little fuzzy.
Jules Kuroda (21:23.128)
Yeah. So I'll use an analogy because I think of the self and its component parts kind of like an orchestra. So you've got like all these different instruments that come together and you have the role of the conductor and then you have the role of the person who's actually like written the music, the composer, and they all play different parts but they come together super fluidly.
And so I think about the body in this analogy is the actual instruments. It's right, literally playing the music. And then you have the composer and the composer is the brain and it's actually putting things together, right? And then you have the heart is sort of the emotionality that comes in through the music and the signaling. And then I think of the innate self as more of that orchestra leader, the one who is
who is conducting, who is saying, it's time for you to go, it's time for you to go, if we tap into it. And that's kind of how I see it being both together and distinct. Like it has its own, each piece has its own part. But I think within our lived experience, it can be very hard to distinguish. Like in coaching, a lot of times what will happen is when you're breaking down a belief, let's say that you,
come to me, Reese, and you're like, really want to be successful, but I just don't know if I can. I don't know if I'm ready. I don't know if I'm capable. Is that a thought or is that an emotion? It's both. And you've got to break them both down. In that thought, you have a thought there. And that thought might be, I'm not good enough. I don't have enough experience. I don't know what good looks like. It may be that, right? But the emotion is, I'm afraid.
or I am concerned or and they blend together to create our reality. And so they aren't they aren't separate. They are distinct. But they are but they are all connected. And I think that's part of you know, I love distinction to talk about paradoxes explored like I love understanding distinctions, but also the connectivity between things. And I think the more we can understand how this is complexity, you know, it's that
Jules Kuroda (23:48.43)
They are their own things and I talk about like one of the ways we can kind of know which part is through the language it uses. So our minds use the language of thoughts. that's we have thoughts come from the mind. Our hearts, the emotion, it's all there. It's all in the way we feel. Our bodies are action and our innate self is in being and connection.
And so that can also help us understand some of the distinction a little bit as we get into, you know, trying to unpack ourselves.
Reese Brown (24:26.702)
Yeah, absolutely. That's super helpful. I love the orchestra analogy because there is something that kind of arises out of it that is separate from all of these pieces, right? That it comes together to create something. Talk to me a little bit about why you are so fascinated with these questions. What is it about?
the big questions that called you to write a book about it, right? And help other people with these questions and continue to chase it down even though, you know, as we've been talking about throughout this conversation, it kind of evades answering, but there's something, I mean, don't let me project anything, but I would imagine there's something to you that still feels worth asking.
and why that asking is so important to you.
Jules Kuroda (25:29.728)
Yeah, I mean, when it comes to like, why did I write the book? Part of the reason I wrote the book is because I see the moment we're in culturally. And I think we're struggling with asking the big questions around meaning and purpose. And this generationally breaks down a little bit, like I know that like our Gen Z and alphas are coming in and asking more of the why, which is great. But
we haven't created really good social mechanisms to talk about these things. And so what I have found is that people will avoid talking about this because there isn't a social mechanism. And so we're very comfortable now talking about our thinking. We're comfortable talking about our emotions. Emotional intelligence has risen over the last 40 years. So we've gotten very comfortable with that.
We've even got more comfortable talking about somatic things, right? Like where we hold tension in our body and what that might mean. What we haven't been comfortable talking about is the spiritual aspect, not culturally, not socially. And it's to me such a missing part of the conversation. And it shouldn't just be left for church and it shouldn't just be left for, you know, mindfulness practices. It really should be a part of how we think about ourselves, how we understand ourselves, because it's a human like
core characteristic. so for me, like being able to create a framework that makes something pretty untangible, maybe a little scary for people, a little bit more grounded to say like, okay, let's think about our higher nature as eight characteristics. How can we look at each one of these characteristics and just build a muscle? And that, it makes it more tangible.
And I hope it also helps break down the fear we might have around engaging with a belief system. And that's not to say there's beautiful, beautiful things about having a belief system. And I have a belief system. It's not about that. It's about if it's, is the mind versus the, the being or the spirit dichotomy to me is if you aren't able to engage with your being because your mind says, I don't know what I believe.
Jules Kuroda (27:49.666)
You've gotten it backwards. You have to engage with your being and out of engaging with that spiritual part of yourself, you determine your belief system. And so I want to lower the barrier that people have towards engaging and understanding this piece of themselves because they think they have to know before they've even sat with it. And that to me is so key because
we are struggling with, and I talk at the very beginning of the book, like I think we're a lot of what we're calling mental, like a mental wellbeing issue, not to say there aren't mental wellbeing issues, there 100 % are, and our thoughts do drive us crazy. But I think we are living with some spiritual crisis in our society. And so there's a way that I can contribute to helping people understand that.
better about themselves and engage with it in a very grounded way, then that's the calling for me.
Reese Brown (28:50.019)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I absolutely hear that. And I so appreciate the way that it is about bringing it tangible, because I do think that is the missing piece is so much of quote unquote spiritual work is that automatically there is a large portion of the population that are just going to have a barrier to entry there. You hear the word spirit or spiritual and it's like, nope, I it's
Like whether they are a materialist or a naturalist or view themselves as an atheist, it's automatically the snow. But I talk about a lot how I'm like, atheists still get a feeling when they hug their mom, right? When they take the first bite of their favorite meal, when they hear their favorite song. And it's like, maybe you don't consider it this immaterial thing, but there is still a mystery there.
Talk to me a little bit about that and in working with this intersection between, I guess I'll just say like materialism and like strict logic. And I don't know if you've had any firsthand experience with coaching people who that's kind of the framework they start with, but bridging the gap for people who have that automatic like, nope, to this kind of esoteric
work and making it work for them in a way that isn't shutting down their worldview either and how this can still be applicable in that world.
Jules Kuroda (30:32.866)
Yeah, so I think about what you're talking about, what I'll call like openness to spirituality, I think lives on a spectrum. And my book is probably not for the people who sit on the very far left side of, I don't believe in anything. I think, you know, part of what I'm trying to do is to create space for those who are seeking, who are like, okay,
Reese Brown (30:57.592)
Mmm.
Jules Kuroda (30:58.678)
I know there's more to life. I know there's more to me. I don't know how to engage with that. Like, I don't know why I always feel this feeling of like, what's the meaning in it? Or what's the purpose? And how do I engage with those questions in a way that opens me up and doesn't freak my mind out? And I just shut down and I'm super scared, right? And so to me, you know, and I talk a little bit at the beginning of the book, like, part of what I wanted to do here is to create space outside of ideology. Like, to me,
Like I said, I have a belief system. there is a hundred percent like that is a very important part of my life. But regardless of what your beliefs are, you have a spiritual aspect of yourself and it doesn't and I don't want people to think that beliefs is the entry to understanding the spirit. It is and I don't even like to use the word the spirit because I think it turns some people off, right? The innate self.
Reese Brown (31:52.975)
Right?
Jules Kuroda (31:54.254)
the innate self and let's just talk about it as the characteristics. Like who disagrees with wanting to contribute? Anybody? Anybody disagree with that? Like you don't want to contribute, you want to make an impact, you don't want to use your gifts, right? Like it's hard to argue that because I have yet to encounter someone who doesn't want to make an impact in some form or fashion. And that can be very material, you know, literally and very grounded and like a lot of
my coaching with leaders. That's one of the characteristics. One of the other characteristics is around character. Like, what do you want your character to be? This one may be a little bit more personal and deep around, what are your values? How do you think about your moral code? How do you want to handle ethical moments where it's not clearly black or white? And why does that matter? Like, why does it matter to have a strong character? Or does it matter to you to have a strong character? But
Reese Brown (32:45.412)
Yeah.
Jules Kuroda (32:50.39)
I think this is like one of the things if we start to look at people we admire, admire in life, we, it's hard to admire someone that we don't admire their character. And so what is it about character that matters to us? Well, character builds trust. Like if I know that you have a strong value system and I know what you stand for and I know what you stand against, I can put more trust in you. And that helps build.
more societal trust, more trust, you know, together. And again, those things can be shared experiences. They don't even have to be ideological. But there is an ideological component in understanding your own values system. it's these, these are the kind of characteristics of that innate self, like courage is one of them. Like, who doesn't want to be courageous? And, but how do we build the muscle of courage? And what's the difference between courage and bravery?
And I talk a little bit about that in the book because I do think there's a distinction and part of Reese White, like I think it's good to engage outside of the big conceptual thing. Let's engage with the individual muscles of the innate self or levers of the innate self because it's much more grounded to have a conversation about what's the kind of character you want or what's the kind of contribution you want or where do you want to be more creative in your life? And all of these pieces together create your higher
your higher nature, the things that long for more meaning and purpose and joy and contribution. And that's hard to deny because it's not an ideology. It's not a belief system I'm asking people to get on board with. It's like, let's unpack part of what you want. And it's for those who are seeking that.
Reese Brown (34:35.886)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (34:42.252)
Yeah, the things you already know to be true, you already feel to be true. Let's describe it and I'll just repeat exactly what you said, unpack it a little bit to unmystify the things that we all know and feel. I love that.
Jules Kuroda (35:02.19)
And just on that point, what, and that is a part for me is recognize these things you already feel and do and question, that is the innate self. We just haven't had a name for it. We haven't tied these things together. We haven't seen that this is what it means to have the more spiritual aspect of yourself. But longing for meaning is an inherently more spiritual thing.
Reese Brown (35:14.553)
Mmm.
Jules Kuroda (35:30.348)
Like, why do we long for meaning? There's something in us that longs for purpose. And so like, let's acknowledge that and let's put a name to that and let's understand how that works in our lives. And let's not be afraid of the big questions. Let's engage with it.
Reese Brown (35:44.526)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's so powerful. And I also think that a lot of what you're talking about here and part of what's so powerful about the book is the way that it does ground it back into our reality. And at the very beginning, you talked about your work with refugees, which is a big thing throughout the book.
Personally, I don't think that it's a coincidence that we are experiencing this massive global shift feeling, right, towards an eye towards meaning. Like the meaning crisis that all of the people are talking about is happening at the same time of a lot of political, social, and environmental unrest. That seems like
Jules Kuroda (36:39.096)
Meaningful.
Reese Brown (36:40.544)
It seems meaningful. Yeah, I can make meaning of that, right? Why is it so, why is this work? Because I think so often in work that is about justice or really grounded in this reality, It's kind of dissected from the innate self because it feels separate and different.
Jules Kuroda (36:44.632)
or search.
Reese Brown (37:08.64)
Even though it's absolutely not, they're so intertwined. And we can see how a lot of religious organizations have these aspects of charity and service as these very integral pieces of them for all of the good and bad that organized religion brings.
Talk to me a little bit about your work in bringing the innate self into this lived reality and how that helps inform your work of making this life, whether or not your belief system calls for a second one or an afterlife or all of the personal questions, but how does it inform making this iteration of the innate self?
a good one, a just one, one that does contribute to the other people around us in a healthy, loving way.
Jules Kuroda (38:12.042)
Yeah, I mean, another big question. So the way I unpack what you just asked is if I think about... So humans are really interesting beings because on the one hand, we're incredibly selfish. Like we're kind of wired to get what we need, right? We just kind of go after those primal things. But there's a reason we call those primal. And then we have other things, things that are not primal.
that are about contributing, that are about helping other people. And those are more, those are more divine things. I don't know, I don't know a better language for it than those are things that flow out of something bigger than us, that we have inside of us. And that, that I encompass in the innate self. And I think, gosh, isn't the world better if we're all giving a little, if we're a little bit kinder to one another, if we're a little bit more generous to one another. And your, you know, your first question just around like you were having
sort of a meaning moment, a meaning crisis moment at the same time that we have all this social, political unrest. I think it's a really important point because to me, and this is probably why, you know, the book was like waking me up at 4 a.m. to like, you got to write this book, you got to get this out, because to me, it's a wake up call moment. Like we all need to have this, hey, just going after our own primal needs and making sure we get, I get everything I need.
and filling my own cup, but not caring about your cup isn't working for us. It's destroying nature. It's destroying each other. We're not happier. We're not, we're more anxious. We're lonelier. Let's wake up and recognize that that's a very primal way of living. And when we live that way, it's not very like fulfilling. It may be satisfying our short term kind of dope and being like hit.
needs, but it's not, it's not bringing more joy, it's not bringing more fulfillment. And, and so we need to ask a different question, we need to look at life a little differently. And to me, that is about that's why the timing for like understanding our innate self is so impo like imperative because we all have the answer inside of us. It's just about getting out of all of our patterns and our thinking and, and you know, to
Jules Kuroda (40:39.358)
I don't like when I was back in like seventh grade and middle school, we talked a lot about self-esteem. I don't know if the kids are talking about self-esteem these days, but like one of the things when you were when you were being taught on self-esteem is it's more blessed to give than to, you know, to receive. And that's a part of how we actually see ourselves as better, better beings is by contributing to other people. And if you've ever done it, you know it, you feel it. It's like, wow, this is so
so much more powerful than if I was just getting, just doing what feels good to me. And that's part of what I feel like was life-changing about working with the refugee community is that, you know, I worked with people who, you know, literally had fled for fear of persecution and death and had lived in tents for 40 years. And they would show up in my classroom, just the most joyful people I had ever met.
They radiated peace and love and their energy was just incredible. their energy was contagious. It changed me. And I was there to contribute to them, but they gave me so much more than I gave them just by their gratitude and their generosity. I can't tell you how many of my refugees would bring me gifts. And they literally had probably $100 a month to spend on stuff like that.
and they were choosing to spend it. And how does that not make you feel so much more connected to people when you see that they're giving just a little bit that they have and they're sharing it with you? It just, it softens you. It softens your heart. And I think we all need to practice a little bit of that, a little bit of softening. We've been very hard. And I think that's one of the things the mind's good at is sort of protecting and being sharp.
And that's where some of those ideological differences, breakdown, the political breakdowns that we're having, I don't know that it's serving us. And so the way out to me is let's tap into that softer compass guide in ourselves that does want to give, that does want to contribute. And let's see if that isn't a better way of living.
Reese Brown (42:52.492)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think, like you said, like, let's just see. Let's see, because clearly this isn't working. You know, and I think that that is something that we can all feel is like, there is some something's got to give. In writing this book, you know, you mentioned earlier, your book is not for the people all the way on the one end of the spiritual spectrum that are like, not ready or just like not closed.
Yes, the nope, right? Which is a completely valid place to work from. don't want this to...
come across as judgmental or anything like that towards people that have that nope. I think that that's just a different avenue of accessing the mystery, right? But in terms of this kind of work, I feel as though there may also be another spectrum of people who are really open to like, yes, let's tap into the softness. Yes, let's tap into the kindness. Yes, like we all need to turn an eye towards that.
and the people that are, nope, it's a dog eat dog world. You have to look out for yourself first. You need to, the whole grindset culture thing, right? That's the whole thing. How do you approach that spectrum with your work in the sense, think, yeah, and where do you see it meeting that?
Jules Kuroda (44:31.03)
Yeah. You know, I would say that let's start from where we align and, and we can all find something to align on. So let's just take Harry Potter, shall we? Because Harry Potter was huge and everybody read Harry Potter. And I don't, I haven't met a single person, no matter what the belief system that was like, go Voldemort. I really want the bad guy to win. You know, it's like, it just, everybody rooted, rooted for the light. And that's, think where we start.
Reese Brown (44:31.595)
need.
Jules Kuroda (45:00.404)
is who doesn't want to root for the goodness and the light? Like who's really on the side of Darth Vader? And like we share that. That's one of those common threads of humanity is like we root for the light. We have hope in us. It's just how we're made. And so I think if we can start from a place of groundedness and like we all want life to be better, right? And we all...
want goodness to win, right? And we don't want to live in a world of corruption, right? Like we, I think we can ground on some of those things. Again, I'm not, I am not trying to push ideology. To me, it's about, let's find that seed, that seed of the self that looks for beauty, that looks for light, that looks for goodness.
Reese Brown (45:42.148)
Right.
Jules Kuroda (45:51.66)
and let's nurture that seed. And so if you, may have a full blown tree in there that's like soaking up the light and you know, producing fruit. You may have a little tiny seed that just needs some, that needs some watering and that needs to explore. And so that's why I call it a spectrum. But I think regardless of, again, part of what you're raising is, is kind of our belief system. Let's step outside of that and let's, let's look at like where we all want.
goodness and light and love, like who doesn't want to be loved? I haven't met that person yet. And so if we start with those things, you've already tapped into the innate self. Now how open you are to it or not, that's 100 % on every single person, like to how big do you want that to be in your life or not? But if we can tap into it, if we can just recognize it, that's even a huge start to me.
Reese Brown (46:21.082)
Hmm.
Reese Brown (46:31.577)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (46:46.168)
Yeah, absolutely. think almost it's how you say, how you hear all the time, like recognition is the first step or like awareness is, it's like 90 % of it too, right? Is that it's like just calling something to awareness and looking at something, right? Is kind of a lot of what we're talking about.
Jules Kuroda (46:55.938)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (47:11.45)
I do want to read one of the quotes that you include in the book. You have several epigraphs throughout and I love it. I'm such a quotes person. When I was little, I had a gallery wall in my room that was just filled with all sorts of quotes. There's always something beautiful to me about kind of capturing the thing that we're talking about, right? And this one I had never heard before and it just really
Jules Kuroda (47:25.837)
you
Reese Brown (47:38.546)
really struck me and it's an Albert Einstein quote and so I'll read it for our listeners.
for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.
Jules Kuroda (48:24.738)
Right?
Reese Brown (48:25.092)
And that's Albert Einstein, the most analytical, like left brain guy we know, right? Like the space-time continuum talking here about compassion and consciousness.
Jules Kuroda (48:36.545)
Yeah,
But I think, mean, to that point though, and this is why I thought it was so powerful, like if it's good enough for Albert Einstein, I mean, come on, like it's good enough for me. But I think there's something so powerful about that Albert Einstein to me really represents kind of the beauty of the whole. He was highly analytical, he was very intelligent, he understood science incredibly well, and yet he held within that same construct the mystery.
intuition. He talks a ton about intuition. And he understood this kind of more esoteric nature of life and without fully getting it. Like it's just, right, I see this and I see that we're segmented from it and let's understand and try to build more collective wholeness towards it. And I just, I mean, that's so powerful.
yeah, it's so powerful to me that that he sort of represents that whole. But you know, I think you said something at the very beginning about New Age versus kind of ancient and I tend to lean more towards the ancient as well in terms of how I think about this, because I feel like it's a we've just kind of lost an ancient secret on some of this stuff, that if you go back and you read Plato and Socrates, and I talked a little bit about that at the very beginning, like, we've been wrestling with the nature of man.
since forever. let's go back and look at how they talked about some of these things. And so Albert has a great quote there. one of the things that the allegory of the cave, have you heard the allegory of the cave? Right. Such a beautiful analogy for those who haven't heard that story. I'm going to do my best at summarizing it. But it's essentially there are these people who are living in this cave and they've never seen light.
Reese Brown (50:14.423)
Mm-hmm.
Jules Kuroda (50:26.334)
and they're chained to the wall and they're only able to see the shadows of themselves on the wall and they think that that's reality because that's all they've ever seen. And at the end of the allegory, you know, they're freed and they walk into the light and they're totally blind. And I think that is such a beautiful way of understanding kind of this piece of us that we may not fully understand it. We may feel blinded by it or
or some of this may feel like too hard to conceptualize, but like let's get out of just looking at the shadows and let's step into the light. Let's look at how expansive we can be. know, humans are not just primal, we are also divine. And so stepping into the like understanding that we are more than those things and that's why we ask the big questions.
Reese Brown (51:17.636)
Yeah.
Jules Kuroda (51:18.166)
And not just the big questions. Like I talk about meaning is like micro meaning versus macro meaning. We make meaning, Reese, out of everything. the look of, right, the look that you have on your face right now, I'm making meaning out of that. The smirk that your mom had on the phone last night when she like, you know, we make meaning out of all of that. And so it's just so important to recognize that we are meaning makers. We can make good meaning, we can make bad meaning. But
Reese Brown (51:25.953)
Everything.
Jules Kuroda (51:45.602)
But let's lean into it, let's not shy away from it.
Reese Brown (51:49.006)
Yeah, no, I completely agree. I mean, clearly the podcast is called Making Meaning. I'm like, you are absolutely, yes, yes, yes, yes. If any listeners are curious about Plato's allegory of the cave, I'll link some resources down below too so that you can dive in and explore that a bit more. Make your own meaning out of it, exactly. But the piece, the meaning that I always make,
Jules Kuroda (51:53.876)
I know. I know.
Jules Kuroda (52:09.986)
Make your own meaning.
Reese Brown (52:17.144)
that, well, not always, because I think, you you first read it in whenever I did and it's like, this is so powerful and you have all these gut reactions, but in returning to it, the piece that really sticks out to me now is that they're blind when they leave the cave and they see the sun. And I think your note of human beings being both
divine and earthly, we kind of sit at the crux of that, right? Is taken so well. And there is something about staring straight into the sun will burn your retinas, right? It will literally harm you. In Greek mythology, you can't be in the presence of a god, otherwise you will be burned up. And there's something, I think, hubristic about wanting to be fully divine.
because that does ignore the earthly, the body of it all, right? And yet we have ignored a lot of the light too, and that it is the combination of these things that is our special mix of humanity. How do you conceptualize of that special kind of blend and what makes
Jules Kuroda (53:12.941)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (53:45.371)
I guess what makes the human experience of the divine distinct?
Jules Kuroda (53:54.658)
You know, I think of, if I think about religion just in its most like basic objective, I think it's to conquer the primal. Like in the most basic form, regardless of the religion, it's basically like recognize that you have these things in you that if you feed those,
Reese Brown (54:06.362)
Mmm.
Jules Kuroda (54:17.91)
I love the story, the Native American story about the two wolves in the stomach. Do you know this story, right? So the story goes, this grandfather's telling his grandson about, there's two wolves that live inside of you. There's a good wolf and a bad wolf. And the grandson says, well, which wolf wins? And the grandfather says, the wolf you feed. And I think that's it, right? So religion is a mechanism to help us feed the good wolf.
Reese Brown (54:24.271)
Mm-hmm.
Jules Kuroda (54:47.254)
maybe it works, maybe it doesn't work, depending on how people weaponize it. I think there is something so important about having faith in something bigger than yourself. I think it helps us feed the good wolf. Because if you just stay attached to you and to, I making enough money? Am I happy? Am I doing what I want to do? It can feed that more primal, just, know, it's a wolf. It wants to eat all the time. It wants to eat everything in its path.
Reese Brown (55:15.62)
Right.
Jules Kuroda (55:16.642)
Right? Whereas the other side is that, which I would talk about as the innate self is it wants to give, it wants to, it wants to share. It sees goodness in everyone or goodness and opportunity like around us. It gets outside of some of the selfishness and you have to feed that wolf because we do have that primal side and we do have the other, the other. So recognizing the duality within us.
It's the light and dark in Harry, because we talked about Harry Potter, right? And I think it's in every major story. Like, it's also in Lord of the Rings when Frodo's having this moment in the cave and he's like, I don't know. And what does Gandalf said to him? He's like, it's not about being all good. It's about being more good than you are bad. And I think there's just something, and I butchered that, but you get the point. Don't quote, that's not a direct quote, but it's...
Reese Brown (56:12.27)
Yeah.
Jules Kuroda (56:13.388)
But I think there's something so important for us to recognize in the duality of our being, but that we have to feed the good wolf. if we're not intentional, then it's very easy to lose sight of that and to just lean into our selfish, kind of more primal nature.
Reese Brown (56:35.118)
Yeah, absolutely. And I do love the examples of Frodo and Harry and Luke and no, absolutely same. And I think there's a reason why these things are so popular is because it speaks to something that it's hard to put into words, right? And yeah, it's so beautiful.
Jules Kuroda (56:41.806)
English nerd.
Reese Brown (57:04.308)
you in your journey towards feeding the good wolf and this idea of giving back and you you said you were woken up at 4 a.m. like you got to get this out. You got to write it down and may we all have the blessing and the curse of something waking us up at 4 a.m. to just have to do it, right? What is this meant to you? And in where you currently are on your journey with your innate self,
Yeah, I guess just talk to me about where you are right now in your journey with your innate self.
Jules Kuroda (57:41.898)
Yes, so great question. I think, you know, for me, writing writing this book was an exercise in a few things. One, for me, it was an exercise in faith. It was like, okay, this is something I feel called to do, I'm going to do it, and I don't know what's going to happen. And I'm just going to do it. And I'm going to release control a little bit. And I'm going to hope that it adds value to people's lives. And
that that was something very growing for me and my own kind of practice. And the other piece of that was discipline. It takes a lot to write a book. And I also have I'm an executive. I also have a two and a half year old kid. And so carving out the time, that's why the 4am wake up call probably, you know, it had to I had to be very disciplined about it. And, you know, we don't talk a lot about discipline as a as a culture, except for kind of in dystoicism.
But discipline, I think, is such an important muscle of feeding the good wolf in the sense that you have to conquer the primal. Like, you can't just, it's so easy to just roll over and push the snooze button because your body wants to sleep. But to choose to get up and to do the hard thing, which is what it was for me, which is get up.
do the hard thing, go get myself a cup of coffee, sit down right for a couple of hours before I start my work day, be tired, it's okay. Like I'm choosing to do this because I think it's meaningful to do this. And it's an exercise in the muscles of self-discipline. And that was a very like personally growing lesson for me. I'm not always so great at self-discipline. So it's really, it's really been a good reminder to me of the power and the importance of it.
And again, something that we don't necessarily talk about so much culturally. So very growing in that way as well.
Reese Brown (59:42.776)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're so right about that kind of, I think so often in the spaces that we do see discipline talked about, it's actually also maligned sometimes in, like there's been a really big push towards Stoicism in like, Manosphere spaces that I think it can get really toxic and has turned into something that I'm like, that's not the Stoicism that, that
Jules Kuroda (01:00:05.506)
Mm-hmm.
Reese Brown (01:00:12.448)
I read interesting, I mean, the way we all make meaning, right? Interesting to see the way that that meaning has been made there. But I really love what you're saying about it being a tool we can use. And it's a great reminder of how all of these things are tools and what we do with them is how it feeds the different wolves. I wanna be mine, please, please, please.
Jules Kuroda (01:00:16.195)
Mm-hmm.
Jules Kuroda (01:00:37.678)
The last thing I'll just say on this about, I think as I was writing it, the one chapter that was the hardest for me was writing the character chapter. And it was so hard because I think we don't talk a lot about character as a culture. And so I had to really wrestle with the concept and what makes up our character and how do you think about it. And I had to go back to good old Benjamin Franklin and some of going backwards a little bit to look and reflect on.
It's kind of a Jane Austen like note to talk about one's character, you know, and it caused me a lot of reflection on like, I live with the kind of character I want to live with on a day to day basis? And that is the beauty to me of engaging with the innate self is its pause, its reflection, and its intentionality. And like, don't we all want to live with a little bit more intentionality, you know, in who we are and how we show up and how we engage in life?
And so in that way, it was also very, growing for me on on my innate self.
Reese Brown (01:01:39.882)
Mm. No, that's beautiful. And I think too, like, the best books are the ones that you can tell are also for the author. It's not just this thing that they kind of pulled out of nothing, but it's like, your innate self is imbued in it. And I think as a reader, at least for me as a reader, I could certainly feel that. it's...
That energy is not lost in the words. To be mindful of our time here, I wanna take us into, have a final two questions that I ask all my guests. One is, of course, we will have everything links to Jules and her work and the book and all of the good stuff. Please, please, please go read the innate self, check out Jules' work.
It will all be linked in the description box wherever you are listening or watching to this episode. But in light of our conversation and all of the things we talked about, is there anything you would like to go back to, clarify, underline, anything we didn't get to, anything I missed, anything that you think we need to have this as space for you to go anywhere that you think we need to go?
Jules Kuroda (01:03:05.526)
I mean, we covered quite a bit and we got pretty deep. think the one thing we didn't talk about that I do talk about in the book is just the lightheartedness that I think is also in our innate self and the fun we need to bring to the space. You sometimes we engage with this with heaviness, like, my gosh, everything you just said sounds so hard and it's so heavy and
Reese Brown (01:03:19.982)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:03:28.026)
Yeah.
Jules Kuroda (01:03:32.462)
And we, you know, as grownups, we tell ourselves to like grow up and not, you know, be so silly and maybe have so much fun. And I really challenge that. think that so much of what this part of us can embody is lightness and fun and joy. And I think we all can step into that a little bit. So.
you know, I talk a little bit about finding your funny bone in the in the book. And I just think there's something like as you engage with this, it's you know, one of the things I tried to do is add a little humor as I wrote the book, so it didn't feel so heavy and staunch and and I just think it's important to to maybe say that that there is space to engage with this lightheartedly.
Reese Brown (01:04:16.91)
Yeah.
Reese Brown (01:04:20.794)
Absolutely. No, thank you so much for adding that. think play is so important and stepping into it's like inner child stuff, but also there's an Alan Watts quote back to the quotes that I love that is if we're not supposed to dance, then why all this music, which speaks really beautifully to your to your orchestra analogy, but I completely agree in that.
Jules Kuroda (01:04:39.66)
Yes!
Reese Brown (01:04:45.792)
if the point of this is to live meaningfully, it's like, we don't wanna live meaningfully with a storm cloud over our head, right? And it's like, some of the most spiritual moments of my life are sitting around a dining table with my best friends laughing, right? Like your stomach hurting. And it's like, that is where I feel God, you know? So thank you for bringing that. I think that's super important. My last question.
Jules Kuroda (01:04:51.374)
Seriously.
Jules Kuroda (01:05:02.392)
Mm-hmm.
Jules Kuroda (01:05:06.754)
Thank you.
Reese Brown (01:05:13.828)
that I always like to ask just to try and put some sort of button on the beautiful expanse of conversation we've had. What is one word to describe how you're feeling right now?
Jules Kuroda (01:05:31.98)
The word that comes up for me is enchanted. I've been thinking about like one of my favorite words and that word has been coming up. And the reason I think I love it so much is it's sort of, it's got that fun and mystery together. It's like, how can we have a little bit more enchantment in our day and who we are and how we show up? And I feel like this conversation has been deep, playful.
Reese Brown (01:05:35.553)
Hmm.
Jules Kuroda (01:06:02.238)
It's been expansive and I think that that and we've talked a lot about mystery, which we don't talk about so much in our daily lives. So my word would be enchanted.
Reese Brown (01:06:11.556)
Right?
Reese Brown (01:06:15.39)
I absolutely love that. I also love the twinge of magic that it calls us to feel too. That's really so beautiful. Jules, I cannot thank you enough for your work in this book, for the opportunity to be able to dive into your words and for your time and energy today. Thank you so, much.
Jules Kuroda (01:06:33.974)
It's been my pleasure, Reese. Thank you so much for having me.